is the same frequent heartburn treatment as prilosec otc. now with a fancy coating that gives you a burst of wildberry flavor. now why make a flavored heartburn pill? because this is america. and we don't just make things you want, we make things you didn't even know you wanted. like a spoon fork. spray cheese. and jeans made out of sweatpants. so grab yourself some new prilosec otc wildberry. [ male announcer ] one pill each morning. 24 hours. zero heartburn. satisfaction guaranteed or your money back. >> announcer: from nbc news in washington, the world's longest running television program, this

is "meet good sunday morning. it's been nine days since a tragic shooting at sandy hook elementary in newtown, connecticut and the debate over gun control has been revived. the man at the center of the debate that morning, the ceo and,tive vice president of the nra, wayne lapierre, who is answering questions for the first time since the shootings. i want to get right to it. well come back to the program. >> thank you, david. >> you promise in the wake of this massacre, 26 people murdered, that the nra would, quote, offer meaningful contributions to help make sure this never happens again. if we boil down your appearance before the news media on friday, this was your message. >> the only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun. >> you proposed armed guards in school. we'll talk about that in some detail in a movement you confronted the news media. you blamed hollywood and the gaming industry, but never once did you concede that guns could actually be part of the problem. is that a meaning telecontribution, mr. lapierre,

oar dodge? >> david, i said what i honestly thought and what millions and hundreds of millions of people all over this country people will actually make a difference. i can't imagine a more horrible tragedy than what happened. we all have 5-year-olds in our families in some way. i mean, we all put ourself in that situation, and the tears flow down our eyes. the nra made up of all these moms, dads and parents, we have 11,000 police training instructors and 80,000 police families, 4 million members and we sat down and said what can we do that will actually make a difference today to make these kids safe? >> but not conceding that guns play any role, that's a meaningful contribution? >> look, i know there's a media machine in the country that wants to blame guns every time something happens, know there's political elites for 20 years always try to say it's because americans own guns. i'm telling you what i think will make people safe and what every mom and dad will make them

feel better, when they drop their kid off at school in january is if we have a police officer in that school, a good guy, that if some horrible monster tries to do something, they will be there to protect them. >> we'll talk about that more specifically. you're talking about the old complaints you make against the news media. nobody has said it's only about guns so far as i've heard, not the president, not anyone else. i'd like to get your reaction to many soft reaction to you on friday which a lot of people were frankly shocked by your presentation. here what is the "the new york post," a conservative publication, i don't think part of the media conspiracy you talk about, and there's the headline, "gut nut." nraloon in bizarre rant. and "the hartford curant" says "nra's response falls flat" and chris murphy tweeted this. walking out of another funeral and was handed the nra transcript. the most revolting, tone deaf starmt i've ever seen. just your reaction to that very harsh reaction to your words. >> if it's crazy to call for

putting police am r and armed police in our cool guards in our school call me crazy. the nra is going to try to keep people safe. we'll support an immediate appropriation before congress to put police officers in every school and we're going to work with asa hutchinson who has agreed to work with us to put together a voluntary program, drawing on retired military and retired police and former secret service and all these people that can actually go in and make our kids safe. >> the one and only thing? >> you don't think guns should be part of the conversation? >> i think that is the one thing that we can do immediately to make our children safe. >> is it the only thing? >> gun control. you could ban dianne feinstein and do whatever she wants to

with magazines, it's not going to make any kid safer. we've got to get to the real problem and real causes and that's what the nra is trying to do. i have people all over the country calling me saying, wayne, i went to bed safer last night because i have a file. don't let the media try to make this a gun issue. >> that's argument. that's not fact. >> no, it is fact. >> the feeling is not fact. a feeling is a sense of reassurance. that's not evidence, and i know that's not what you're presenting. let's talk more specifically about what you're talking about. armed guards in school. i know they are successful examples. fairfax county, virginia, student resource officers. you know there's a lot of examples where that didn't help. columbine, virginia tech, didn't stop the carnage. >> columbine, there were armed guards there and they didn't go in. they were under orders that if something happened they were to call the police for backup. >> they exchanged fire. >> they waited for the s.w.a.t. team to show up, and the s.w.a.t. team sat outside and --

and tried to figure out what to do. every procedure has been changed since columbine as a result of this -- >> they exchanged fire with the shooters, so your poll of having armed guards -- >> look at columbine. changed every police procedure since colum bible. i don't understand why you can't just for a minute imagine that when this horrible monster tried to shoot his way into sandy hook school, that if a good guy with a gun had been there, he might have been able to stop that. >> i'm trying to test your views here, mr. lapierre, about how it would work. how many do you think you have to have on campus and where? sufficient to have them at the front of the school? >> you know, that's -- our police do this every day. they protect the president, the secret service does. they protect the capitol. they protect office buildings. most of the media -- i know you don't have armed guards here. most media, they are protected by armed guards. why can't we protect our

children? look, a secret service survey was done. it showed the police trying to get there in time only stopped 25% of the shooters. most are stopped by people in the system or turn the gun on themselves. a pretty darn argument for putting good guy in the system somewhere with a gun to help our kids. >> it may be the case. do you allow volunteers, or do they have to be police officers? would you have volunteer forces there? >> i think what you need are police immediately because that's something we can get done, and then i think what congressman asa hutchinson is going to look to do. he got there long before we ever called him, former head of the drug enforcement administration, deputy director of homeland security, he's going to put together a program like they have in israel. israel had a whole lot of school shootings until they did one thing. they said we're going to stop it, and they put armed security in every school, and they have not had a problem since then. let's make our kids safe. let's not argue about this endless argument about gun

control. >> you would concede that as good as an idea us a think this is, it may not work because there have been cases where armed guards have not prevented this kind of massacre and-age. you would concede that point, wouldn't you? >> i'm saying if we're a mom or dad. >> ought to try it. >> dropping my child off at school i'd feel safer, these great men and women. >> you have to concede it may not work. >> nothing is perfect, david, but, gosh, it's going to be better than now. >> a third of the schools that already have armed policemen or armed guards there, would the nra be prepared to help financial financially? would federal grants be necessary to provide this kind of firepower? >> we have all kinds of foreign aid. my gosh, we're doing 2 billion to train the police in iraq. with all the money in the federal budget, if we can't come up to do this there's something wrong in this country. the nra will. we fund the child safety program right now as a model for the

schools for kids too young to be around guns. it teaches them if you see a gun, stop, don't touch them. we have child accidents down to the lowest level ever in u.s. history. >> here's something you said on friday that struck me because i think this is really the nub of the argument about armed security. >> what if when adam lanza started shooting his way into sandy hook elementary school last friday he'd been confronted by qualified armed security? will you at least admit it's possible that 26 little kids, the 26 innocent lives might have been spared that day? is it so abhorrent to you that you would rather consider to risk the alternative.

>> that's your standard, that fewer people should be killed. that's the goal here and the standard here is if it's possible, your words, if it's possible that lives could be shared, shouldn't we try that, that's the standard, isn't it? >> my standard is this. you can't legislation morality. legislation works on the sane. legislation works on the lash-abiding. it doesn't work on criminals. >> if it reduces the loss of life, you're up for trying to do it. >> if it's possible to reduce the loss of life you're worth trying, it correct? >> if it's possible to reduce the loss of life, that's what i'm proposing. >> let me widen the argument. let's stipulate you're right. let's say armed guards work. widen the argument out a little bit. magazine for ammunition that carries 30 bullets. now, isn't it possible that if we get rid of these and replace these and have a magazine that carries five bullets, ten bullets, isn't it possible we can reduce the carnage in newtown? >> i don't believe that's going

to make a difference. you had that for ten years when dianne feinstein passed that ban in '94. it was on the books. columbine occurred right in the middle of it. it didn't make any difference. i know everybody -- this town wants to argue about gun control. i don't think it will work what. will work, i'll tell think. >> this is a matter of logic because anybody watching this, i just heard mr. lapierre say the standard is we should try anything that might reduce the violence, and you're telling me it's not a matter of common sense that if you don't have an ability to shoot off 30 rounds without reloading that just possibly you could reduce the loss of life, that adam lanza may not have been able to shoot as many kids without all the ammunition? it's not possible? >> i don't buy your argument. so many different ways he could have done it, endless amount of ways. >> the federal district judge in san diego, sentenced jarred lovener appointed by president bush, a gun owner and supports the nra. here's what he wrote in the "los

angeles times." bystanders got to tucson shooter jarred loughner and subdued him only after he emptied one 31-round magazine and add am lanza chose as his primary weapon a semiautomatic rifle with 30-round magazines. how is this not an argument for regulating the number of rounds a gun can fire? i get it. someone bent on mass murder who has a ten-round magazine or revolver at his disposal is probably not going to abandon his plan and instead try to talk his problems out. bewey we might try to make the perpetrator's job a bit harder. >> i don't think it l.i keep saying it and you won't accept it. it will not work. dianne feinstein had her ban and it didn't work. what will work. we have a mental health system in this country that's completely and totally collapsed. we have no national database of these lunatics. 23 states, my gosh, how long ago was virginia tech?

23 states are still putting a small number of people into the system. so when they go through the national check system and go to try to screen out one of the lunatics, the records are not even in the system. i talked to a police officer the other day. he said, wayne, let me tell you this. every police officer walking the street knows some lunatic is out there, mentally disturbed person, that ought to be an institution and is out walking the street because they dealt with the institutional side. they didn't want mentally ill in the institution so they put them all back on the streets and nobody thought what happens when you put all these mentally ill people back on the streets? and what happens when they start taking their medicine. we have a completely cracked mentally ill system that's got these monsters walking the streets and we've got to deal with the underlying causes and connections if we're ever going to get to the truth in this country and stop this stuff. >> a lot of people would agree there's a lot of difficulties of

getting that kind of mental health information because there's privacy laws and states not contributing to a national registry. isn't part of the issue background checks? 40% of sales that go on. are you prepared broader background checks if you don't think the ammunition road is the way to go. >> back the national check list, back anyone mentally incompete tent put into a system. they come up with the gun show loophole. there's not a gun show loophole. it's illegal for felons to do anything like that, to buy guns. what the anti-second amendment movement wants to do is put every gun sale in the country under the thumb of the federal government. congress debated this, and say if you're a hobbyist or collector, if someone in west virginia wants to sell another gun they ought to be able to do it without being under the thumb of the >> if you want to screen for thoroughly for the mentally ill, why not screen for for think for everybody and eliminate the fact that 40% of the people can buy a

gun without a background check. >> we don't prosecute any -- >> that's not responsive to the question, mr. lapierre. what i hear you saying is, well, you can't -- you can't do anything about high capacity ammunition magazines because it won't work and you're proposing things that won't work. you're into the art of the possible. your standard is anything that has a chance of working you'll try except when it has to do with guns or ammunition. don't you see that people see that as a complete dodge? >> nrr supports and funded the child safety program and have accidents down to one-tenth of what they used to be. we've supported prison building and programs like project exile where every time you catch a criminal with a gun, a criminal with a gun, prosecute them 100% of the time. if you want to control violent criminals, take them off the street. that's what every police officer out there knows works. we've supported the instant check system and supported

getting these records into the instant check. >> you don't deny even the instant check system has huge holes, just like the mental health registry has a huge hole. >> the biggest single hole in it right now, if you're a felon and you walk into a gun store and you try to buy a gun and they go oh, you're a felon and we're going to turn you down, they let you walk out and they don't prosecute you. it's like bonnie and clyde, like clyde goes in and tries to buy a gun and goes back to bonnie and says i've got some bad news, they didn't sell meet gun. the good news is they let me go. they didn't do anything to me so they go about and commit their crime. >> is senator feinstein's bill to revive the assault weapons ban, is that going to pass? >> i think that's a phony piece of legislation, and i do not believe it will pass for this reason. it's all built on lies that have been found out. everything that i hear -- my gosh, people in the media, i revere their communication skills, but they have an obligation to be factual and truthful and everything that these politicians are saying

about that is not true. they say these guns are more powerful. not true. they say they make bigger holes. not true. they say they lose larger bullets. not true. they say they are we ovens war, not true. everything they are saying. they say they are military guns like our soldiers use, that's not true. i mean -- >> i haven't said any of those this morning. >> our conversation is about what i'm asking. you think it won't pass, and you think there won't be any -- you wouldn't support any reduction of capacity magazines? >> we don't think it works, and we're not going to support it. i mean, i was in a cnn studio and they started running this footage of somebody shooting dianne feinstein's guns and saying these are the guns that nra wants to put back on street and showing them -- i said i challenged the management of cnn to defend the story because they faked. it went to the range on the following monday and showed the firearms on dianne feinstein's banned list shoot no different

and perform in different than the one she doesn't want to basketball. it's all a lie. >> what about being part of the panel being convened by the vice president? are you willing to be in a conversation with the administration about gun safety mesh insures. >> if it's gun safety i actually think the best person to represent the nra is congressman asa hutchinson. if it's a p.m. panel that's going to be made up of a bunch of people that for the past 20 years have been trying to destroy the second amendment, i'm not interested on sitting on that panel. the nra is not going to let people lose the second amendment in the country which is supported by the overwhelming majority of the people. >> any new gun regulation that you could support? >> i'll tell you what would work right now. tomorrow morning, and the nra would be there every step of the way, if the president obama would tell the attorney general of the united states, to tell a u.s. attorney, catch a drug dealer on the street with a guns, prosecute him and take him off the street, violent fellon,

violent criminal, take them off the street. look -- >> right. >> there's no new gun regulation that you would support? >> this is what would work. >> i'm asking you a direct question. is there any new gun regulation you'd support? >> i'm giving you the answer. >> you're saying we should prosecute more criminals. if there's a new gun regulation after the debates of the '90s and so forth, could we make the assault weapons ban better, ammunition ban better? >> one more law on top of laws that the u.s. government doesn't enforce. if the u.s. attorneys would do ten cases a month, that would be 12,000 cases, 20 a month, 24,000 cases. that would get the worst people in the country that are killing people off the street. right now, david, you know how many cases we're doing in the whole country on prosecuting under all the federal gun laws? take a guess. take a guess. >> you tell me. >> 6,000. it's pitiful, and the drug dealers and the gangs and the criminals know it and they go

about their business, and there are 25,000 violent crimes a week in the country, and at scene of the crime it's the criminal and the victim. >> isn't it striking, mr. lapierre, your goal is to reduce violence in this country, and i think back to the reaction after the oklahoma city bombing. i think back to the reaction after 9/11. nobody said there was one thing that was going to work. look at how extensive the federal government's powers that they south, roving wiretaps, all kinds of counter-terror procedures. some work. some don't, but the feeling is they were worth trying and that was your standard. that's what you said on friday. if it's worth trying, why not do it? that's your position on armed guards, and a lot of people would agree with you, but nothing having to do with gun safety, and yet you seem to excuse the role that guns play in violence in this country. >> look. a gun is a tool. the problem is the criminal. every police officer that walks the street knows if you want to control violent crime, take violent criminals off the street. you've got programs like richmond, virginia, where they

had one of the worst murder rates in the country until they put out the word if you're a drug dealer on the street with a gun, we're picking you up and you're going to federal prison. they changed criminal behavior in that town. they immediately cut murder in that town with guns by 60%, 70%. criminals operate outside the system and lunatics need to get the treatment they need and we're not doing that in this count country. >> mayor bloomberg was on this program saying last week you tried to get the president not to be re-elected. you failed in that effort. he says you don't have the clout that you had politically in this town in past debates >> you know, the american people, i know one thing about them, they value their freedom, and when the reality of the consequences of what the politicians in this town and the media and the elites want to do to their second amendment

rights, they will do what they have done his toreically, they will defend the freedom because the american public knows that the scene of the crime is the criminal victim. all the politicians -- see people like mayor bloomberg, new york city. the way it works up there. if you're rich and famous you get your permit. if you're a .100 hitter with the mets you get a permit, a big verl you get a permit, a wall street executive, you get a permit, if you're one of the mayor's buddies, you get a better. if you're a guy in the breaux out there at the scene of the crime most in need of the protax you're flat out of luck. what the nra is about, we're about the average guy, about the non-celebrity, the non- .300 hit err, about the non-verl, and the average guy in the country values his freedom, doesn't believe the fact that he can own a gun isn't part of the problem and doesn't like the media and all the high-profile politicians blaming them. >> do you always have the same clout you've had politically? >> our support is always the american people. decade in and decade out, the

strength of the american people is the american public, and i believe they are on our side to defend freedom. >> bottom line, if there's an approach after newtown that includes mental health and includes gratuitous violence in our media and gaming industry and includes gun regulations. will you support it or oppose it? >> we're going to support what works, putting an armed guard in every single school. going try to fix the mental health system. want people prosecution. we're going to do what protects the american public. that's what we've always done and that's why i'm proud of the nra and why people join the nra. >> we thank you for your views. >> thank you. >> reaction from two key voices in the senate. does the gun control debate have any new momentum, or will it suffer the same fate as it has in the past? joining me democratic senator chuck schumer from new york and republican senator from south carolina lindsey graham and eight days before the fiscal cliff what. are the prospects for a deal and

later the president's priorities for the new year. that's all ahead. ♪ [ female announcer ] almost nothing can dampen a baby's mood, when he wakes up dry in pampers. unlike other diapers, pampers has 3 absorbent layers, for up to 12 hours of protection overnight, and more beautiful mornings. ♪ pampers. peaceful nights. playful days. this reduced sodium soup says it may help lower cholesterol, how does it work? you just have to eat it as part of your heart healthy diet. step 1. eat the soup. all those veggies and beans, that's what may help lower your cholesterol and -- well that's easy [ male announcer ] progresso. you gotta taste this soup.

plays a key role throughout our lives. one a day men's 50+ is a complete multivitamin designed for men's health concerns as we age. it has 7 antioxidants to support cell health. one a day men's 50+. at the doctor's office when they weigh you, and they have to move it over? my doctor does not have to do that anymore. [ male announcer ] for every 2 pounds you lose through diet and exercise alli can help you lose one more by blocking some of the fat you eat. feels great. simple. effective. take that, 50 pound thingy. let's fight fat with alli.

have a healthier holiday at letsfightholidayfat.com. have a healthier holiday who helped make slea difference last yearose for thousands of california foster kids. thank you for helping foster kids. thank you for the school supplies. thank you for the new shoes. thank you, secret santa. and thank you for donating money. your generosity proves that while not everyone can be a foster parent, anyone can help a foster child. - thank you. - thank you. gracias por su ayuda. thank you.

since we announced we were going to have the nra's wayne lapierre on the program, we received so much feedback on line, more than 40,000 saw this post alone. we'll continue to monitor that conversation online. tell us what you thought of the interview on our facebook page this morning at facebook.com/meetthepress or on twitter. in the meantime, we're going to find out what these two gentlemen thought when we come back, senators chuck schumer and lindsey graham with reaction right after this short break. ndd a great life. but she has some dental issues she's not happy about. so i introduced jill to crest pro-health for life. selected for people over 50. pro-health for life is a toothpaste that defends against tender, inflamed gums, sensitivity and weak enamel.

conditions people over 50 experience. crest pro-health for life. so jill can keep living the good life. crest. life opens up when you do. [ sniffs ] i took dayquil but my nose is still runny. [ male announcer ] truth is, dayquil doesn't treat that. really? [ male announcer ] alka-seltzer plus fights your worst cold symptoms, plus it relieves your runny nose. [ breathes deeply ] awesome. [ male announcer ] yes, it is. that's the cold truth! wears off. [ female announcer ] stop searching and start repairing.

eucerin professional repair moisturizes while actually repairing very dry skin. the end of trial and error has arrived. try a free sample at eucerinus.com. the end of trial and error has arrived. try running four.ning a restaurant is hard, fortunately we've got ink. it gives us 5x the rewards on our internet, phone charges and cable, plus at office supply stores. rewards we put right back into our business. this is the only thing we've ever wanted to do and ink helps us do it. make your mark with ink from chase.

we're back with senator chuck schumer of new york and lindsey graham of south carolina.

senators, welcome back. senator schumer, your reaction to wayne lapierre. he is saying any attempt the president makes at gun control legislation is bound to fail because it won't work and it's just a bunch of old arguments. how do you react? >> i think he's so extreme and so tone deaf that he actually helps the cause of us passing sensible gun legislation in the congress. look, he blames everything but guns, movies, the media, president obama, gun-free school zones, you name it, the video games, he blames them. now, trying to prevent shootings in schools without talking about guns is like trying to prevent lung cancer without talking about cigarettes. he is so doctrinaire and addiment that i believe gun owners turn against him as well. look, he says the only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun. what about trying to stop the bad guy from getting the gun in the first place. that's common sense, most americans agree with it, and i just think he's turning people off.

that's not where america is at, and he's actually helping us. >> senator graham, there are nra supporters, colleagues of yours in the senate who are saying, look, let's not just make this a consideration about guns as some would like to do. it's got to be a broader conversation, but i heard wayne lapierre say, no, he will not sign on to a broader legislation if it involves any new gun legislation. do you agree with him? >> well, the first conversation we should have is how heartbroken we are as americans. i don't think there's anybody in this country that doesn't feel sick to their stomach. i can't imagine a worse situation than getting a call as a parent saying there was a school shooting and you go there and your child is killed. let's start with that understanding. here's the conversation. we can talk all day long. had an armed guard in columbine, had an assault ban and neither one of them worked. we're talking about preventing mass murder by non-traditional criminals, people not traditionally criminals, not wired right for some reason.

and i don't know if there's anything lindsey graham can do in the senate that can stop mass murder from some crazy person hell bent on killing. i would say better security in school. >> that can't be the default of legislators in the country that there's not a public policy role to address mass shootings, when we've had the number of mass shootings even since 2007 that are so shocking. what did the assault weapons ban actually accomplish in terms of preventing access to high capacity mag zones in the fact that it doesn't work is still something you're challenged by if you want to approach this legislation again. >> well,ing amount of gun celebs since we passed the assault nuclear weapon ban in the brady law is down considerably. is it as good as it should be? absolutely not. need to keep working on this, and there's lots of different solutions. the pro-gun people who don't say guns are wrong and the pro-gun safety people like myself who

say don't look at other solutions are wrong just as you said on your show we have to look at a whole list of solutions. cannot make the new normal one of these mass shootings every month, and that seems to be what's happening. so we should try all kinds of different things. >> what do you differently here? >> the american people had v been through this before. had a weapons ban that expired. does the president want this fight, and if he wants, it how is he going to win it because there's a lot of difficulties getting a weapons ban through. there are questions about whether it would work. even banning the high-capacity magazines. what do you do differently than what you've done before? >> okay. there are two reasons that i think it can work. how -- how are we able to pass the brady law and the assault weapons ban in the mid-'90s? it's because the average citizen was fed up with crime and on our sigh. because of those laws and many other laws dealing with crime, crime declined, but now that the mass shootings seem to be almost the new normal, almost one a month, i think the broad middle

will rise up, and that will help us. in the last ten years the whole debate has been dominated by the small but militant number, 3 million, 4 million nra people in the country. >> do you think the politics have changed? as a republican, do you think the nra has the same clout to be absolutist about this rather than be part of a broad conversation, even if it means accepting compromise it may not like and maybe the entertainment industry has to accept compromises that they feel infringed upon first amendment rights? >> well, i own an ar-15. i've got it at my house. the question is if you deny me the right to buy another one, have you made america safer? my belief that this is a problem where you try to get mass murderers off the street before they act by better mental health detense and try to find ways to understand what makes them who they are, but i don't suggest we ban every movie with a gun in it and every video that's violent, and i don't suggest you take my

right to buy an ar-15 away from me because i don't think it will work, and i do believe better security in schools is a good place to start. >> would you ban high capacity magazines though, senator? >> the whole goal is to interrupt the shooter, right? changing a magazine, can i do that pretty quick. the best way to interrupt a shooter is to keep them out of the school and if they get into the school have somebody that can interhunt rim with armed force. we're not one law away from solving this problem. i understand how chuck was brought up and maybe he tries to understand how i was brought up. people where i live, out christmas shopping all weekend, saying please don't let the government take my guns away and i'll stand against the assault ban because it didn't work before and won't in the future >> i know we can talk about this indefinitely. i want to get to another

intractable debate and that's the fiscal cliff. congress has left town and there's no deal here. senate schumer, the president is proposing a smaller deal. are we going to avoid the fiscal cliff by the first of the year or not? >> i hope so much. if you look at final positions last monday of both the president and speaker boehner, they were this close. they were this close to a solution. the president was about 200 -- the president was about 200 billion higher on revenues. speaker boehner 200 billion higher on spending cuts. out of a $4 trillion budget that doesn't scene seem unsurmountable. i hope they don't stop talking and my one bit of advice to speaker boehner is you can't pass a bill with just republicans. on a thing like this you need both and he's put himself with plan "b" in a tough position. if he were to say and the president were to say we'll pass a bill with a majority of democrats and a majority of republicans in the house and

senate, we could get a mainstream bit. i know he's worried about his speakership but what i found in my 37 years as a legislator is when you show leadership, when you show real direction and courage, even people who disagree with you will vote for you for speaker, so i would urge speaker boehner to abandon this plan "bb strategy and work on a bipartisan solution. >> senator graham, the question for you is could you vote for a bill that extended tax cuts for 250,000 and below, extended unemployment insurance as the president wants to do and in some way delays some of these automatic spending cuts? could you vote for that in the short term? >> no. if you want leaders, then you have to lead. the president's been a path thick fiscal leader. he's produced three budgets and can't get one vote. boehner will be tip o'neill, obama needs to be ronald reagan. here's what i would vote for. i'd vote for revenues including tax rate hikes even though i don't like them to save the

country from becoming greece, but i'm not going to set aside 1.2 trillion in cuts. anything hope of going over the fiscal cliff must start in the senate. not one democrat would support the idea that we could protect 99% of americans from a tax increase. boehner's plan "b" made sense to. my republican colleagues. the ronald reagan smoeld if you get 80% of what you want, that's a pretty good day. we have the same objective of lower taxes. i lime simpson/bowles, eliminate deduksz and lower rates and put money on the debt. tax rate hikes are a partisan solution presented by the solution and he'll get tax rate hikes to. my republican colleagues, if we can protect 99% of americans from a tax hike, that's not a tax increase in my book so, chuck, maybe me and you and some other people in the senate can find a way to solve this in the short term but in the long term there won't be a deal. >> you think we're going over the cliff? >> i think we're going fall out of fiscal tree. the big chance for a big deal is

at the debt ceiling. that's when we'll have leverage to turn the country around, prevent it from become greece and saving social security and medicare. i will raise the debt ceiling only if we save medicare and social security from insolvency. no more borrowing without addressing why we're in debt to begin with. that's where the real chance for change occurs at debt ceiling debate. >> quickly,or. >> i don't think use the debt ceiling and defaulting on our debt, my dear friend lindsey graham, one of my best friend, is the way to go. that's risking the faith and creddist the united states. the president has told speaker baron and the country that he won't hold the full faith and creddist of the united states at risks so someone can achieve a political agenda. don't even count on bargaining over a debt ceiling. what we should do on taxes, i know it's hard for the republicans. the president ran on that platform, no tax increases pleau and taxes for people above. he won.

60% of the voters said they were for it in the exit poll, including some republicans and yet our republican colleagues by refuses to go along with revenues, are risking the fiscal cliff and make no mistake about it. if we go over, god forbid and i still don't think we have, to the american people are going to blame the republican party, and they will come right back and pass something, so i don't think the middle class is at risk because if we go over the cliff our republican colleagues will come back and say uh-oh and pass the bill we passed in the senate already. >> quick answer, could chuck hagel become the secretary of defense if he's the president's nominee? >> a lot of republicans are going to ask him hard questions, and i don't think he's going to get many republican votes. i like chuck and i didn't quite know all of his positions, outside the mainstream and well to the left of the president. the hearings will matter. >> would you support him? >> chuck will have a chance to support him level. >> i'm going to wait and see what happens in the hearing, but

i've got questions about chuck's vancouver iran, the situation with hamas and hezbollah, his position towards israel, just afghanistan. i want to hear what he has to say, but very troubling comments by a future secretary of defense. >> senator schumer, should the president make that nomination? >> well, that's his choice. i think once he makes it, his record will be studied carefully, but until that point i think we're not going to know what's going to happen. >> can you support him? >> i'd have to study his record. i'm not going to comment until the president makes a nomination. >> we'll leave it there. gentlemen, happy holidays to you both. appreciate your time. >> thank you. fiscal cliff talks, cabinet changes, what will define pope mae's agenda after the first of the year, and has this last week done damage to speaker of the house john boehner and to the republican party? my roundtable is here, republican congressman from utah, jason chaffetz, former congressman harold ford, andrea

mitchell and chuck todd. back in a minute. uh... whew. [ male announcer ] break from the holiday stress. ship fedex express by december 22nd for christmas delivery. i've been fortunate to win on golf's biggest stages. but when joint pain and stiffness from psoriatic arthritis hit, even the smallest things became difficult. i finally understood what serious joint pain is like. i talked to my rheumatologist and he prescribed enbrel. enbrel can help relieve pain, stiffness,

and stop joint damage. because enbrel, etanercept, suppresses your immune system, it may lower your ability to fight infections. serious, sometimes fatal events including infections, tuberculosis, lymphoma, other cancers, and nervous system and blood disorders have occurred. before starting enbrel, your doctor should test you for tuberculosis and discuss whether you've been to a region where certain fungal infections are common. don't start enbrel if you have an infection like the flu. tell your doctor if you're prone to infections, have cuts or sores, have had hepatitis b, have been treated for heart failure, or if, while on enbrel, you experience persistent fever, bruising, bleeding, or paleness. [ phil ] get back to the things that matter most. ask your rheumatologist if enbrel is right for you. [ doctor ] enbrel, the number one biolog medicine prescribed by rheumatologists. they don't help single moms. hi! hi! [ sarah ] what happened to our house last year? [ daughters ] it flooded and the water flooded out. yeah. [ sarah ] the red cross arranged the hotel for us. they gave me that break, that leverage, to be able to get it together

and take care of them. you know? i feel like we've come full circle. [ daughter 1 ] like that! [ daughter 2 ] this is how i'll do it. [ sarah ] there you go. [ male announcer ] the rhythm of life. [ whistle blowing ] where do you hear that beat? campbell's healthy request soup lets you hear it... in your heart. [ basketball bouncing ] heart healthy. great taste. mmm... [ male announcer ] sounds good. it's amazing what soup can do.

nobody gets 100% of what they want. everybody's got to give a little bit in a sensible way. we move forward together, or we don't move forward at all. so as we leave town for a few days to be with our families for the holidays, i hope it gives everybody some perspective. >> that was the president, of course. we're back with our roundtable.

joining me tea party-backed congressman jason chaffetz of utah, former democratic congressman of tennessee, harold ford, jr., chuck todd and nbc foreign affairs correspondent andrea mitchell. welcome. let's talk about the fiscal cliff. are we going to get a deal here? >> we're going to get a small deal. that's what the senate will do. it's a shame. you wonder is the only thing that could change things, the holidays, does it change boehner's mind? does it change the president's mind? think politically the president is making a mistake to go for a small deal. he'll lose leverage. he should try one more time for the big deal. you had nearly 200 house republicans about to vote to raise taxes on millionaires. that means could you get it up from 400 to 750? a deal is within reach. he's got to figure out -- i think go one more time. they seem to have had it, and they don't want to try boehner one more time but i think they're making a big mistake.

>> congressman, speaker boehner will face a big revolt if he puts down a bill that requires democrats to get it passed, there will be a revolt, will there? >> my frustration is with the democrats because the house republicans, our conscience is clear. in august we dealt with the fiscal cliff issue. we have passed that. it's harry reid and the president that have yet to come up with something, and if it's so easy, if they thought they had a solution to it, why on friday didn't they come to the table and actually pass something in the pressure is on them. what can they pass in the senate? >> harold, you know the politics of this and the markets and how they have been reacting and wall street and corporate america more generally. is there new pessimism now that, a, we're not going to get a deal and we won't solve these issues anyway? >> big disappointment. people in the business community outside of washington understand, couple hundred billion over ten years separating both sides. the question is becomes can washington still govern itself?

there's a growing realization we're in the middle of a small recovery. if we find ourselves not able to resolve this moment, it retards and slows and for that matter undermines what we see ourselves going forward and finally for the life of me as someone who served there, so distressful to watch, watching both sides yelling at each other, i feel sorry for speaker boehner, some of your colleagues are a little unreasonable and some democrats are unreasonable but as someone who loves the country and wants us to go forward, have you to wonder what does it take for them to come together if they can't come together? >> durable goods up, personal growth, housing market coming back and the economy is poised, but the markets, the stock market is going to react. i'm not going to predict-can't predict and don't have the knowledge, no one does as to what exactly is going to happen. chuck is right. they should go -- the white house should get over its upset

with boehner and help bail him out. one question to john baron and the rest of them, request leaders can't count, what else can they do? how they went ahead with plan "b" knowing they didn't have the votes. that is sort of one-on-one in politics. >> make them reject one more time. >> there's no real partner here. there's no partner. >> that's what they say. >> here's the broader question, it includes the gun debate, okay? what are the president's priorities going to be after the first of the year? congressman, you heard wayne lapierre. does he reflect your views about how to approach any kind of remedy after a massacre like newtown which is we should talk about everything but guns? >> look, my wife and i, we have three kids, and i -- if there's something that we can do again, of course i'll support it, but i also -- >> come on, there's no standard likes that. that's why you try things. that's what public policy is about.

>> i'm a concealed permit carrier, i have a glock 23, i have a shotgun. there are millions just like me. we're not the problem. i think there's common ground we should be attacking first and foremost is that mental health issue because there are maybe not the laws that we need. maybe there's not the reporting that we need. to say that's already been tackled -- >> has politics changed, harold? is wayne lapierre as you heard him to in sync with the political class on both sides of the aisle today? >> no, he's not in sync with the country. the argument i heard my friend lindsey graham make the argument i have a big gun at home and i'm responsible. it's like saying the speed limit is 55 miles an hour, people should trust me to drive 90. if you don't have magazines that allow you to shoot 40, 50, 100 times, that won't happen. we should all be willing to say for the safety of the country, do i really need a magazine that

shoots 100 rounds? can i be satisfied with one that shoots six or seven? can that still hunt? we talk about entitlements and tax reform, i think that has to be part of the conversation. i think the majority would say wayne lapierre, you're wrong. let's accept and embrace a different standard. >> you've got 35 states that don't cooperate with the fbi on background checks. you've got states now that permit gun, conceal guns in elementary schools, you've got such a patchwork quilt of states permitting guns and access to guns in places where common sense says they shouldn't be but certainly on these magazines. >> why not a bill that says how about federal grants for armed security in schools, address mental health, i mean, it's a conversation about culture as well as some of these gun restrictions because it sounds likes that's not where the administration is headed. which could be a political mistake.

>> i don't know how they get it through the house. in 1994 in a democratic-controlled house 216-214 is how the assault weapon ban was in the house, that was democratic controlled house, 258 democrats were in that house of representatives. you you're not going to see anything. maybe the magazine clip. i do think the magazine clip could you see some sort of movement there but this goes back to why the president has to get a deal before the end of the year. if the entire year is lost going two months after two months. if it bothers him they didn't get the respect they deserve from boehner, i get it. they're never going to get to guns, to energy, to so much they want to do. they've got to figure to get this done in a long-term way. >> the armed guards, i do think there is some merit to that. >> but not armed teachers. >> when i went to high school in the 80s we had an armed officer. >> you can't go to a meeting in new york without taking your picture and having a security to get in the building.

this is right in the heart of midtown, one. safest areas in the country. >> his point is why not try? then why not try reducing the ability of high-capacity magazines? isn't it possible that that could reduce the carnage? >> we tried it for ten years and it didn't work. there are millions -- >> we didn't try magazine limits. >> yes, we did. it was limited to ten. >> how do you know what would have happened? you can't prove a negative. >> the reality is there are millions of them out there. this is a second amendment right. i don't think it would necessarily solve the overall problem. i think the mental health is true. as far as arming everybody in schools and teachers, look, i had high school science teachers who can't negotiate a bunsen burner for goodness sake. i wouldn't suggest that we necessarily give everybody a gun, it's not for everybody. but how we deal with it in utah is going to be way different than how we deal with it in chicago. >> david, one thing that came out of your interview they've thought was interesting that the

nra i didn't think would ever be on, he was calling for forcing states to participate more. if you're the obama administration and you're looking for the nra's help on something, well, forcing states to participate more on the background checks, all of these things that aren't happening, if the nra is going to do that and force these conservative republicans governors to sign legislation that did that, that would be a step. >> andrea, i want to talk about the second term cabinet. chuck hagel did not get a ringing endorsement from senator schumer or -- from senator graham this morning. >> what senator schumer said was really very revealing. if a democratic senator is not going to come to chuck hagel's defense, i think there is serious problems there. >> he did not come to his defense. this is going to be the second consecutive nomination where the president doesn't get his first choice. >> this white house cannot continue to float trial balloons and then not have them shot down. the president can't get what perceived to be rolled by

opponents. the problem that chuck hagel has is he's now getting shot at from the left and the right because of his past comments, which he has now retracted and apologized for against gays. >> what is the core message of the state of the union? >> well, you tell me if there's a deal at the end of the year. the president has promised to put guns in his state of the union. which by the way, this has been a club that the white house has threatened over boehner, which is saying, hey, you are know i'm going to win the political argument and the white house is right but at what cost to the economy? at what cost to his own agenda? >> all right, we'll take a break here and be back in just a moment. hi, i'm ensure clear... clear, huh? i'm not juice or fancy water. i've got nine grams of protein. that's three times more than me! [ female announcer ] ensure clear. nine grams protein. zero fat. in blueberry/pomegranate and peach.

but with advair, i'm breathing better. so now i can be in the scene.

advair is clinically proven to help significantly improve lung function. unlike most copd medications, advair contains both an anti-inflammatory and a long-acting bronchodilator working together to help improve your lung function all day. advair won't replace fast-acting inhalers for sudden symptoms and should not be used more than twice a day. people with copd taking advair may have a higher chance of pneumonia. advair may increase your risk of osteoporosis and some eye problems. tell your doctor if you have a heart condition or high blood pressure before taking advair. if you're still having difficulty breathing, ask your doctor if including advair could help improve your lung function. get your first full prescription free and save on refills at advaircopd.com. when you give a child a toy, it has to work. ♪ make just one someone happy

and when it's a toys for tots child, well, what could be more important? so this year, every hasbro toy donated to toys for tots will be powered by duracell. happy holidays. duracell with duralock. trusted everywhere. i just finished a bowl of your new light chicken pot pie soup and it's so rich and creamy... is it really 100 calories? let me put you on webcan... ...lean roasted chicken... and a creamy broth mmm i can still see you. [ male announcer ] progresso. you gotta taste this soup. thanks to everyone for a great discussion here. i hope you have a happy holidays. if you're looking for a last-minute christmas gift for the history buff in your family, our new e book makes a perfect stocking stuffer. harold's got a box of them. it's a